Long-term Leadership Lessons

00:00:00: We tend to ask people to sip a bit of this at the beginning.

00:00:03: But listen, it can't be a regular sip has been Indian old man slurp.

00:00:10: Really?

00:00:11: That's easy!

00:00:14: That is just embodying himself!

00:00:17: Indian Czech Older Man check!

00:00:20: You really want us do

00:00:21: that?!

00:00:25: I think the podcast is over.

00:00:26: i'm done.

00:00:27: what are you saying?

00:00:29: Can you do the whole thing?

00:00:33: Here we go.

00:00:39: Oh, it's really hot!

00:00:41: It is very hot!

00:00:42: Normally when it's cold...

00:00:43: I've spent all my taste buds!

00:01:11: Especially Uncle Clive and Uncle Kaye.

00:01:14: Welcome welcome.

00:01:16: How did you get here?

00:01:17: And not just into this room but like how Did You Get?

00:01:22: Not Don't Give Me The Details of the other stuff, but just like how did you get into this room?

00:01:27: How do you uh... Get to Southampton.

00:01:30: How did you um become Christians would like tell me Tell Me The Story because I think This is one of the most incredible things i've ever heard.

00:01:38: so

00:01:39: Okay well..I was brought up around Catholic and as a little boy I went to school taught by nuns Did all the Things it Was an Altar Boy Went To Confession Did All The Things That Catholic kids do, but as a teenager worked out that if there was a real God just all this tradition and everything couldn't be it.

00:02:02: So I started really searching for what was the real meaning of life in my teens.

00:02:08: or go out into the fields and pray?

00:02:11: And look into sort of Eastern philosophy.

00:02:15: maybe that was it...and then when i went to university because as Catholics, we didn't read it.

00:02:23: And I started at Matthew and I read three out of the four Gospels in a week cause they just couldn't put it down.

00:02:31: This man Jesus on his love and His goodness It's totally gripped me.

00:02:37: yet The Bible wasn't saying what?

00:02:39: I thought he would say be A good boy you might get to heaven but He said believe in Me You have eternal life.

00:02:49: I didn't really know what that meant.

00:02:51: So, went to a friend of mine who had always said he was a Christian and... ...I thought I was!

00:02:57: And i've been reading the Bible lately.

00:03:00: He'd just be into pre-university mission pep talk on how to present gospel.

00:03:05: so he told me That Jesus died for our sins, he's alive today.

00:03:10: You can have relationship with him.

00:03:13: Why hasn't someone told this before?

00:03:16: The ground old age of eighteen I wasted my life.

00:03:18: This is, someone should have told me this earlier.

00:03:21: I

00:03:21: haven't met many eighteen-year olds like you.

00:03:23: that's amazing!

00:03:24: And

00:03:24: i went home that night and i'd lay in bed and just prayed Lord Jesus forgive me come take over my life.

00:03:32: it was as if the whole room Was full of some one who couldn't see coming towards me at the bed.

00:03:37: It felt like I'm sick...and this was a nurse going to make me well again.

00:03:41: I can remember thinking all searching for God are done.

00:03:45: I never thought if had an encounter with him, he would be like a nurse.

00:03:50: And it came very peaceful went into me and fell asleep the next day.

00:03:56: all sorts of things that have been doing I hadn't even though were wrong couldn't do anymore.

00:04:00: no one said anything particularly read on the Bible but something has changed.

00:04:07: my parents friends.

00:04:08: they could say what's happened to you?

00:04:10: You won this last term I went to the Catholic Church, in The Mass they always prayed a Mary.

00:04:17: I'd pray that prayer all my life came to.

00:04:21: it couldn't do something here saying no you only pray to God.

00:04:28: everything changed.

00:04:29: All i wanted To Do was give up the degree i Was studying and go out And share the gospel with everyone.

00:04:36: That evening of the next day i phoned home to My mother and said can You send me bank book?

00:04:42: She said why don't want that?

00:04:43: for That was my life savings at that age.

00:04:47: And I said, I want to give it to the

00:04:49: poor.".

00:04:50: She said what?

00:04:51: This is The

00:04:52: Next Day!

00:04:54: What happened do you...that started fourteen years of robust discussion after which she came into faith

00:05:04: and

00:05:05: After praying i decided To finish the degree Thought I'd go out.

00:05:10: change the world At that age had a lot But I graduated July, and I was in India by November with Operation Mobilization to learn how to share the gospel with South Asian people.

00:05:26: I spent three years with them then came back to... The UK was praying about where I would actually minister to People from largely Hindu-seeker Muslim background because i'm from the Isle of Wight.

00:05:42: Southampton was the nearest place with a substituent population, so I ended up here.

00:05:51: So you said university?

00:05:52: You went to Oxford.

00:05:53: what did you study?

00:05:55: Biology.

00:05:56: and why did you choose that?

00:06:00: because it was subject i liked best.

00:06:02: really...I mean..i can remember sitting in our college saying why are we doing this?

00:06:09: It was the subject I was best at and so on.

00:06:14: For me, it was those nature programs to sort of David Attenborough.

00:06:20: he's that old... He

00:06:22: inspired you!

00:06:22: ...he

00:06:22: was going when i was young.

00:06:24: um he's gonna be a hundred

00:06:25: soon yeah

00:06:26: And uh there were those type of programs actually and I got really disillusioned studying biology at university because A lot of it turns into chemistry or biochemistry and So on and I liked they more Nature-type programs.

00:06:43: So yeah, I that's why i got into it and almost changed when

00:06:51: uh...

00:06:53: When i came to faith?

00:06:54: I thought about doing theology changing to theology change it to psychology but then praying about it..I just wanted to finish the degree and get out there And actually

00:07:06: that degree has been very not just a degree But your sort of scientific mind is being valuable too Throughout your Christian.

00:07:14: Well,

00:07:14: I guess what Oxford does is it teaches you to think

00:07:17: yeah

00:07:18: You have to do all the research yourself week by week.

00:07:22: Yeah So yeah, I never went to Bible college Because if i go in or may not come out because I like all that academic thing and I thought It's gonna be too much of a temptation for me so just studied the Bible for myself

00:07:41: Uncle Kate, yeah.

00:07:42: For you what was your story coming to faith and how you ended up here?

00:07:47: And How You Know This Young

00:07:48: Man?

00:07:51: Did you say were sweaty earlier?

00:07:52: Quite sweaty!

00:07:53: Yeah I feel nervous.

00:07:54: What

00:07:54: did

00:07:57: you tell me to relax?

00:07:58: so... Are also nervous but Uncle Clive it's your

00:08:00: nearer the light It

00:08:01: is being in my presence.

00:08:03: In MY

00:08:04: presence?!

00:08:06: I can't even explain..I didn't think i slept very well last night because thinking about this moment and I was like, what do i do?

00:08:15: Well as a family we were from the Sikh sect called Radhaswami.

00:08:21: It's a sect based mainly in Punjab but now it's spread all over the world.

00:08:25: there are centres even in UK.

00:08:27: now My mum is very developed on that stream And naturally you grew up watching your parents.

00:08:40: My sister and I were both the same, if anyone had asked that's what we would say with other songs.

00:08:45: And then they moved all over India.

00:08:47: We moved here when i was about six or seven... ...and uh..we lived in Southall little india and Then we move to Southampton in the late sixties and then for The first time ever I went back To India In seventy three And when I came back, I'd lost all my friends because I went and didn't want to come here.

00:09:09: I enjoyed it so much!

00:09:13: When i came back was quite lonely as kicking a ball around just up the road from here on Northumberland Road in front of the garden that's against the wall... ...and someone said have come to church And I said no, now got my own religion.

00:09:27: Thank you But he persevered for a few weeks so it won't pass and i'll still be kicking the ball.

00:09:33: Um anyone third or fourth time?

00:09:34: I went with him to.

00:09:35: let's just see What what they do?

00:09:38: Hmm, and I think the thing that drew me initially which is friendship very friendly welcoming group especially The guy there taking me where we became quite deep friends And I kept going, and then sometime later... I'm not sure exactly how much later.

00:09:57: My friend's mum died.

00:10:01: his name was Steve.

00:10:03: When she died it just gave me sleepless nights thinking what happens when you die?

00:10:10: Where is he gone?

00:10:11: What is that?

00:10:12: So i asked my Mum.

00:10:15: She said well this is what happen in the you die.

00:10:18: so what happened though?

00:10:20: If you've lived a good life, then go to be with God.

00:10:24: And if not... Then somewhere else.

00:10:26: and that was worrying because I would start going to church With this.

00:10:30: friend asked the same question there.

00:10:33: The answer I received There is put your trust in Jesus You'll be forgiven No matter what you do.

00:10:43: Go To Be With God.

00:10:44: That drew me And I kept going and then one Sunday the preacher was just saying if anyone should say back, give their lives to Jesus there.

00:10:54: Now pray with you stayed back.

00:10:57: To be totally honest i didn't know what it's doing?

00:11:00: Just wanted to pray in a wanted those drawn by what he'd said.

00:11:03: yeah

00:11:03: He prayed.

00:11:06: But something changed me that day as well is something that I don't understand.

00:11:12: And again, a little bit like Clive said is people notice the change.

00:11:17: I couldn't stop talking about Jesus.

00:11:19: I want to tell all my friends...

00:11:20: How old were you?

00:11:20: Thirteen-fourteen

00:11:21: or something like that?

00:11:24: just couldn't Stop!

00:11:25: I wanted everyone to turn and convert.

00:11:26: mom and dad.

00:11:29: My mum was very gracious.

00:11:31: she listened and All okay.

00:11:33: they allowed me go to church.

00:11:36: But i think my Dad got quite disturbed as time went on.

00:11:38: he thought it's just a phase.

00:11:41: As time went on he tried to stop me and I was just loved going to church.

00:11:48: And also as i came home when started talking with my sister about it she's also interested, and again thankfully her friends at college were also sharing the gospel with us.

00:11:59: so lots of work in both of us!

00:12:01: Because I'm coming home not realising that Im actually feeding her God's word...I am telling her the things they did there even a few months, he also came to faith and that was really good for us.

00:12:13: There were encouragement one another.

00:12:14: yeah she's a few years older than me.

00:12:16: so uh I. That then led on trouble at home.

00:12:22: My dad especially was disturbed And i'd say he was uh He was elapsed rather saw me in his faith Because you're not meant to eat meat and drink alcohol.

00:12:33: they only did both?

00:12:38: Changed him to become a more devoted in his own faith and he stopped all those things because it worried.

00:12:43: that was his influence.

00:12:45: Yeah,

00:12:46: my faith continued to grow.

00:12:48: And even though my dad would stop me going to church I will sneak into the garden over the garage at the back and go to church.

00:12:55: Wow

00:12:57: Which is the opposite of what most people do The out-of-church sneaking two churches.

00:13:02: That's right.

00:13:07: Yeah, that's part of the story about how I came to faith.

00:13:10: And do you know what happens when we die?

00:13:13: Do you think maybe all people are asking this question but particularly from other religious backgrounds... ...maybe they're thinking a bit more

00:13:27: on it?

00:13:27: Not sure if there really is anyone else who has come across like me.

00:13:32: their answers are quite different in terms of, especially from a Sikh background where you have multiple chances.

00:13:40: If you really believe in reincarnation then keep coming back but give them some kind of hope that would happen.

00:13:53: But the news of forgiveness for sins.

00:13:56: life and Jesus was completely different in comparison.

00:14:02: That's right, that's why I never heard of forgiveness.

00:14:05: but yeah which is...that was what really was appealing.

00:14:07: there could be forgiven and know for certain they'll go to be with God.

00:14:11: it's not dependent on how good i am or What can do?

00:14:14: But the god will give that to me as a gift.

00:14:17: And uh Yeah!

00:14:19: Thats' what I wanted my parents to know

00:14:23: I guess like from what you have shared today following Jesus has come at a real cost to you both.

00:14:32: What,

00:14:34: what has led you to this moment?

00:14:36: right where?

00:14:37: You have counted the costs and still chosen to follow Christ because that's not an easy choice to make.

00:14:44: so for you what has been the thing that has held you here?

00:14:48: um I guess for me the verse i often go about my story is Matthew third in forty four kingdom of heaven.

00:14:57: It's like a man who finds the treasure hidden in a field.

00:15:01: And immediately with joy goes and says all he has to buy that field, To me That was always what it was.

00:15:07: The idea... ...that.. ..the God of all creation would love me enough to die for me.

00:15:15: I then come into my life and change and use Me Was a treasure so wonderful.

00:15:21: i don't count as having lost anything.

00:15:23: its a joy to have wanted give up degree straight away.

00:15:28: It was only praying about it and that goes in those day there.

00:15:34: And a degree of oxford's like highly coveted.

00:15:36: You know, that was

00:15:37: I was the first

00:15:38: person

00:15:38: First person who my extended family ever to go to any university before The Second World War.

00:15:44: Only the elite.

00:15:45: when yeah, and then it was Oxford.

00:15:48: and Then i talked about giving up.

00:15:51: So you can imagine the reaction.

00:15:54: Yeah so really to give it up, actually that's a joy.

00:16:01: And the verse is so significant because The man finds a treasure hidden in her field.

00:16:07: So for most people they don't see it.

00:16:10: To most people.

00:16:12: when I did what i did My aunts and uncles...I can remember thinking one aunt said oh When Clive was a little boy He wanted to be a clown Because I would say go away into the circus and become a clown.

00:16:24: She says well he has done hasn'y?

00:16:27: It was an aunt that said to my mother

00:16:29: because they saw it.

00:16:30: Yeah, yeah

00:16:31: Because I threw all out away and they thought that was just crazy.

00:16:36: It's a life That doesn't make sense to other people does it?

00:16:38: Yeah,

00:16:39: because They don't see it the treasure is hidden in a field but if you See it then its worth everything.

00:16:45: If someone bought a field sold their house say half A million pound House or something To buy An empty Field people might think they're mad.

00:16:53: But if they know that there's a hoard of Roman coins worth fifty million in that field, then not so foolish.

00:17:01: So actually no matter what it costs It cost Jesus everything to save me and to say which one

00:17:09: of us?

00:17:11: So Actually yeah, it's not always been easy.

00:17:15: India was the toughest times with my life.

00:17:19: There've been other tough time since But in the end he's worth it.

00:17:24: Yeah,

00:17:26: how about for you uncle Kay?

00:17:28: The initial cost was just in relationship with my parents especially my dad because as My faith grew Our relationships got further and further apart.

00:17:39: And then When I came to Falling falling what the Lord said is if we don't get married You marry a Christian.

00:17:47: yeah

00:17:48: all those things.

00:17:48: this came out.

00:17:49: everything was a cost.

00:17:52: trying to get married to someone that was a Christian, first finding one wasn't easy.

00:17:56: But then when I finally got married... That's the real difficult time.

00:18:02: looking back is very, very difficult for my dad and by the way answer to your question earlier there's some sun there so he just stopped talking to me gradually And on the day My wife's family came to talk to him.

00:18:25: You know, she wasn't very kind and that was

00:18:29: hard

00:18:29: for her.

00:18:31: And the day we got married I left home.

00:18:34: on that day after maybe five or six years i'd go back every week just nothing.

00:18:42: It is a sort of age where guys need their dad.

00:18:44: you're making big decisions in your life

00:18:46: buying

00:18:46: houses jobs all those things.

00:18:50: It just, that was difficult.

00:18:53: But then by God's grace and time That relationship mended through some intervention of one his friends And also when Sanjay was born.

00:19:01: actually thats solidified it more.

00:19:04: Good job

00:19:06: Well done.

00:19:07: I mean its funny because from my perspective i couldn't see the riff Because he would have had to walk though Many years before.

00:19:19: obviously There's a cost and we were talking about it on this Before but how many of the costs that you and mum had to take care Of?

00:19:29: And deal with have meant.

00:19:30: We haven't obviously had to deal With those things and I'd much clearer easier path.

00:19:37: Life is hard for everyone in one sense, But in that sense yeah easier.

00:19:42: i think That would allows these things for us To go through.

00:19:46: First of all, it strengthened my own faith.

00:19:48: I'm looking to God as My Father

00:19:50: and then

00:19:51: My Dad.

00:19:52: And that is something I learned...and wouldn't have learnt in the same depending on Him.

00:19:57: But when we came back into each other's lives he was more like friends our relationship with different and deeper And as the years went on, you know that continued to grow and

00:20:08: yeah

00:20:08: like with other pairs of roles reversed You know became more like the dad.

00:20:12: He was there.

00:20:13: he was Yes I suppose.

00:20:15: well it wasn't ever the Dad but supporting him one more

00:20:18: Yeah, and i guess what?

00:20:20: You walk through Like Sanjay has never not known his dad To love and care for Him and That's a real gift and Has been A huge kind of making up.

00:20:28: who you are?

00:20:29: Absolutely, yeah.

00:20:30: Yeah I mean just touching on some of the hard things because we both did mention them.

00:20:36: You're sat in that chair for a particular reason.

00:20:38: tell us about your own health challenge that you've had and it came after all of that...

00:20:45: The bigger thing actually Sanji is that i'm depressive by nature.

00:20:51: That's actually probably the biggest miracle because if someone had told me as a young man that I could change and that i wouldn't get depressed, quite frankly.

00:21:05: I would not believe it!

00:21:06: I wake up every morning still now think blah don't want to get up another day no...not another day um..that's how I am everyday still but through trusting in the Lord what I would say is Uh, it was raining in my heart.

00:21:27: I was getting soaking wet.

00:21:29: now is still raining in the heart by not being wet.

00:21:33: uh and what i What developed later in my life as well?

00:21:38: Is a movement disorder called dystonia which is what you were first of all referring to um Which is similar to parkinson's parkinsons.

00:21:46: there's this tremor.

00:21:47: Dystonia is cramped usually in the neck so my neck craps To the right which is why i'm sitting leaning back hard and holding my hands in place to stop the cramps.

00:21:58: And that's caused by the chemical dopamine in the brain, in the movement center of the brain.

00:22:04: In Parkinson's.

00:22:05: dopamine is not being produced in dystonia It's there but it's not been taken up properly.

00:22:11: So they think probably one of their receptors That takes it out or makes it useful isn't working properly.

00:22:18: so you get these Movement spasms,

00:22:23: cramps

00:22:24: regularly.

00:22:26: And that

00:22:27: came on progressively from my mid-twenties until I was diagnosed in my late thirties and started getting Botox injections.

00:22:38: so i don't look bad for eighty five I'm not that old.

00:22:45: But no, and the Botox is in the back of their neck into the muscles...

00:22:48: Very young neck!

00:22:49: That

00:22:49: crap yes.

00:22:51: Hey people pay a lot money for that.

00:22:54: No but you wouldn't pay for this.

00:22:58: And so

00:22:59: that

00:23:00: actually was something to cope with but less of a problem than depression which is much worse Actually, so and I had already coped for years with that.

00:23:14: And the depression they didn't go straight away like that.

00:23:17: when i came to faith it was a process...I would say It probably took me ten years as A christian To get a real handle on it.

00:23:25: there's an up-and-down but The graph going in the right direction yeah?

00:23:29: um..And

00:23:31: I'm still depressive by nature.

00:23:33: what I learned When I did the research because I'm a biologist by training did the research on dystonia, it said people with this disease often suffer more from depression even than people with Parkinson's.

00:23:47: Oh that explains a lot because The chemical dopamine which isn't working is also the mood Relating chemical.

00:23:57: so if you don't have dopamine in working It makes you depressive yeah.

00:24:03: So actually goes with the territory and really has given me an insight that what a chemical can actually do and That a lot of what goes on in our Mines, and in our brains is actually biochemistry And the Bible says that it's able to divide between soul and spirit Between What?

00:24:27: Is just about so which I think is the mind controlled by genes and environment.

00:24:33: The Spirit was actually spiritual and so there's something that we need to take hold of, because someone could be biochemically set up to be cheerful all the time.

00:24:46: And they might think well that is great!

00:24:47: That s a joy for the Lord really?

00:24:49: Is it or just in their way built?

00:24:53: Is this thing like the nice flesh thing?

00:24:55: isn t what you have talked about before?

00:25:01: One of the things that gave me a huge insight was before they gave you The Botox, They tried Me on a chemical.

00:25:06: A Clonazepam he remembers and yeah... That changed me didn't it?

00:25:11: For the first time in my life You liked him thought It's good!

00:25:15: But

00:25:16: for the first Time In My Life I woke up feeling great And i thought wow Is this how other people feel?

00:25:24: Yeah but..I think Was addictive so it needed an ever-increasing dose to work and in the end I was blacking out with it, yeah.

00:25:33: And i had to come off it which so I know what its like coming of an addiction actually because as a doctor said sometimes people never came off that but really educated me how much pure chemistry changes your mood Because for first time ever my life felt great demonstrative in those days and emotional.

00:26:00: If you are my type of person the more calm, depressed if your quite cautious.

00:26:05: well suddenly there was a climb that wasn't Yeah, quite different.

00:26:11: The inhibitions went...

00:26:13: Oh my gosh!

00:26:14: What

00:26:15: I would

00:26:16: have given to be a fly on the wall with an loose clive.

00:26:23: Well there was meeting just down the road from here On the road where i was running a charity shop because we were having a meeting With council about

00:26:34: sex

00:26:34: shops on that road shut.

00:26:37: And so there was a counsellor, and the new Clive went into that meeting.

00:26:48: One of the counsellors said I'm sure people in this area are more concerned with poverty than they are getting these sex shops closed because the local MP for Eastley actually died through something he bought at one of those shops.

00:27:06: So I said, you're saying that?

00:27:09: I live here.

00:27:10: And one of the local MPs died through something he bought in that shop.

00:27:13: and your saying people are more concerned about poverty than that policeman was smiling a lot and the council is

00:27:24: amazing!

00:27:24: That's an amazing moment.

00:27:27: It's

00:27:27: funny what chemistry can do.

00:27:29: i think it so interesting as well because perhaps we've all encountered people like who make alot more of the spiritual thing happening with someone's personality on both extremes, actually.

00:27:44: You can get the ones who sort-of say... Actually all these things.. All you need to do is pray a bit more and y'know ..you'll be better.

00:27:52: And I've certainly encountered ...and well i don't know if this in the South Asian scene but In general Where people are struggling with depression Are kind of demonised More because of that condition from Christians who think they mean well, or whatever.

00:28:10: And then you get the other end where there's a much more secular outside is all medicine and that's all it is.

00:28:18: There's no place for prayer in this but your sort of embracing both of those inner very nuanced way.

00:28:27: what do you say when you got people?

00:28:28: Because we've dealt with people have been depressive four decades now.

00:28:33: How do you handle all of their concerns in that area?

00:28:36: Well,

00:28:36: it depends.

00:28:37: There's different types of depression.

00:28:38: so there is what's called exogenous depression or endogenous depression.

00:28:42: Exogenous is basically due to the circumstances.

00:28:45: So if someone loses a job Or gets an illness That makes them depressed.

00:28:54: But my type of depression If your like is endogenous It's due something makeup.

00:28:59: Yes,

00:28:59: yes.

00:29:00: so if I'm dealing with someone like that i would first of all try and explain to them what they're dealing with is not really them.

00:29:07: it's something People can spend their whole life, if they're like this looking for an answer and people do.

00:29:18: I've seen people Spend a whole life thinking well If only i changed my job?

00:29:22: But finally i change the place that live if only i change My marriage partner it's all gonna go away.

00:29:29: Of course It doesn't because its in here And Its not In The Circumstances.

00:29:34: so there is A huge bit of wisdom if people Can get hold.

00:29:38: Yes

00:29:41: asked us to come and pray for an Asian person just in this area from Sikh background, who was basically impacted by some chemical imbalance.

00:29:54: But they'd gone all over the...

00:29:56: What did THEY think it was though?

00:29:58: They thought there were some kind of evil spirit And had gone all around India with different temples.

00:30:03: so I prayed for different gurus or whatever.

00:30:07: We went we prayed But there was no reaction to praying in Jesus' name.

00:30:13: In fact, the young man was quite happy for us to pray in Jesus's name and he was smiling when we finished... Which

00:30:19: shows that in some ways it is not a spiritual... That's right!

00:30:22: And my client asked if I had been to a doctor but they hadn't.

00:30:28: It wasn't even thought into their heads as automatic because you don't want them... It's hard facing up to truth that something might be within them outside which can maybe sort out by other means.

00:30:40: But I did see that lad a number of times after, they said he was happy.

00:30:48: When i went to therapy at sixteen it was like taboo and my family were like why would you not talk about it with us?

00:30:54: And I was like you lot are the problem!

00:31:02: No all jokes aside though but... I guess, common.

00:31:07: And I think your story has hope for people who haven't experienced that instant healing and yet learn to have joy in the Lord's... ...in the midst of deep sadness and struggle.

00:31:20: You had similar dad you know?

00:31:22: In terms of your own mental health.

00:31:24: post meeting mum tell us what happened.

00:31:32: Your mind was the other type.

00:31:33: it was circumstantial something outside that happened.

00:31:38: My dad, at the grand old age of nineteen sent me to India to go and build a house in Delhi.

00:31:44: I had no experience with doing anything like that And while i was out there just...the pressure on attention or getting that organised Was huge But slight back story for it is because mum that he sent me over because he didn't want me to marry her and his response was to get me married off out there.

00:32:17: But the Lord used it, I took the opportunity share of the Gospel with all my family.

00:32:23: three in my family came for the Lord at that period including my grandma who I never saw again.

00:32:28: and but while i was out there in that moment the last few weeks of being out there when ended up in Delhi In, uh-in The time.

00:32:38: I was there as far more is on my own As well dealing with all these builders just still do today anyway That it's too much stress And a basic other break down.

00:32:50: The Lord overruled in that the day I had to break down one of my uncles who was with me and if i hadn't been, where would it have ended up?

00:33:02: Thankfully he took me.

00:33:03: It's completely complete break.

00:33:06: no idea what I was for weeks actually.

00:33:13: To have quite serious treatment out there.

00:33:15: And then next thing after a breakdown were some glimpses getting up sort of jetting over from England to come and fetch me basically.

00:33:26: And you came back?

00:33:28: I came back, again there's lots of backstory all related to it.

00:33:32: the Lord had warned before i went.

00:33:33: something was going to happen.

00:33:35: There is a word spoken which i felt for being that theres gonna be storm in your life.

00:33:39: And I was excited.

00:33:40: the Lord has spoken to me, but I didn't listen to words.

00:33:43: He said it's a storm and it wasn't like...

00:33:45: Big Apple what you wish for huh?

00:33:46: Yeah!

00:33:47: ...and if I'm as exciting as I've spoken.. ..and the Lord used those few months in terms of allowing me tell people about Jesus.

00:33:55: But when the Storm came It was pretty bad.

00:34:02: My dad said that he would take your back to England under conditions.

00:34:07: You don't see Vashi again And you never go to church again.

00:34:11: Um, and so I agreed and it was a whole hearted belief that thought no good for Vasya No Good for Church just want to come back.

00:34:19: So came back and spent quite few more weeks in the Department of Psychiatry here various bits of treatment And then the Lord reminded me, because the word was related to the storm.

00:34:33: He said like there's a storm in the boat and until Jesus got up I'd say be peace.

00:34:38: Be still!

00:34:40: The Lord reminded of that Word while i'm staying at hospital... ...and I felt how go back church which my dad said not-to-go.. ..I asked him will you take me to Church?

00:34:49: They said no.

00:34:50: So they'll get better if we're going back.

00:34:55: My Dad wouldn't agree but mum did and he took me to church.

00:34:59: And so I went in, got prayed for...and now was healed.

00:35:05: It was when never looked back since then.

00:35:12: And married mum

00:35:13: after that?

00:35:15: Who is Gujarati by the way?

00:35:17: you're welcome!

00:35:18: Yes she

00:35:21: is yes..I have nothing else to say.

00:35:24: Blessed

00:35:25: blessed in that department And you're half Kujathi, so I think i like you significantly more because of it.

00:35:31: to be completely honest.

00:35:35: Well You guys have spent most your lives sharing Jesus and making the gospel accessible particularly those from a South Asian background.

00:35:44: Why is that relevant?

00:35:45: why Is important what you've dedicated your life's doing

00:35:50: for me?

00:35:51: I was drawn, for two reasons to India.

00:35:56: One because i had looked into Eastern philosophy when I were searching so there was that.

00:36:02: and secondly Because at the time... ...I just wanted to go for the largest population And China was closed To The Gospel.

00:36:10: So India Was Open.

00:36:11: They spoke English as well Which is a great blessing.

00:36:18: Operation mobilisation did trips out there, so we drove to India.

00:36:22: One of the last times it was

00:36:24: possible... Drove?

00:36:25: To

00:36:25: India!

00:36:28: I don't know what to do with myself.

00:36:29: What do you mean?

00:36:31: Well, driving along a road to India

00:36:35: You didn't take an easy jet flight.

00:36:37: No, no.

00:36:38: Wow!

00:36:40: That's

00:36:40: commitment

00:36:40: through a lot of the world that you can't drive thru.

00:36:43: Yeah

00:36:43: we were the last people who really could do it safely.

00:36:46: but even for us I arrived in Iran The day revolution broke out and we didn't start it

00:36:56: A

00:36:57: bit dangerous going trough Iran.

00:36:59: at the time We had to bypass Tehran by the Caspian Sea.

00:37:03: They went all though Afghanistan before Russian invasion before the fighting really started.

00:37:09: Oh my goodness!

00:37:10: So

00:37:11: yeah, and then

00:37:14: spent a year-and-a-half in India living with Indian people.

00:37:19: so that got me to adapt to culture...

00:37:24: And now you're Hindi's better than mine?

00:37:27: ...and the Indian culture as well thinking of how Indian people think because We didn't have any other foreigners around Qafton.

00:37:40: And then it came back and worked in Coventry so that fulfilled the three years with Operation Mobilization, I came here because... In this country at the time if you go about fifty-years The white population had heard of the Gospel more.

00:38:01: now In fifty years, it's changed quite a bit.

00:38:03: There are all the youngsters now in... ...in the white population here that don't know the Gospel that well But they're most unreached in Britain at THAT time were Hindu Sikhs and Muslims

00:38:15: And

00:38:17: I've always wanted to take on them more difficult ones.

00:38:21: So even though The more committed Muslims or whatever Because God can do

00:38:27: anything.

00:38:30: Everyone needs the good news.

00:38:33: You better be careful, some people listening might be sending their friends here soon to find you!

00:38:39: That's what we want.

00:38:41: What about you Uncle Kay?

00:38:44: Well a bit more obvious answer.

00:38:48: from that background and having heard The Gospel I'm best suited when

00:38:55: sharing

00:38:56: it with my own backgrounds wanting to share And so, I've been doing that ever since with limited success.

00:39:06: But the desire also to just share people... ...with other people in their area.

00:39:12: So when i left the bank.. ..I went through all of those things that I could think about.

00:39:18: That I can tell and spend time on really had a lot more time to see before Just taking an opportunity to share it.

00:39:25: See if there's any interest

00:39:31: Is there also, because obviously you've done that together leading church.

00:39:36: I mean was it thirty five?

00:39:39: How many years have we worked together?

00:39:43: We work together and how long has the Church been going?

00:39:45: Worked Together.

00:39:46: Worked together is to be thirty seven years this

00:39:50: year.

00:39:51: I haven't been alive for so long!

00:39:53: And i just about That evangelistic heart has sort of been pulsing underneath, but also a church growing around all that.

00:40:07: And because we were thinking about leadership and talking in this context what are some the things you would say are required particularly reaching out to people who have reached here?

00:40:22: Of leadership and pastoral responsibility particularly sticking with the more difficult cases and the ones where you don't see much movement or response to?

00:40:38: all kinds of people might be listening that are in similar scenarios.

00:40:40: What would say, so maybe just starting out on that journey?

00:40:43: Or wanting to reach out like lead churches who engage from other cultural backgrounds, faith background support... You know, it's all the wisdom that you've learned.

00:40:54: to summarize in a few sentences please.

00:40:58: Well number one love The People.

00:41:02: That is the key.

00:41:04: I did a seminar on the other day on cross-cultural evangelism and One of things i said was...

00:41:10: ...you

00:41:10: might work at understanding the culture.. ..you might make mistakes.

00:41:14: probably will make mistakes At different points if your not from that culture but If people knew who care about them if you actually really do care and love them, it will cover over an awful lot of things.

00:41:27: And yeah ask the Lord for guidance that be filled with a spirit.

00:41:32: this is the key thing.

00:41:33: he's The Lord Of The Harvest.

00:41:35: evangelism Is not like spreading some message Like I don't know the Labour Party and a festival or something.

00:41:43: We're trying to recruit people To Some party.

00:41:46: It isn't like That that the Lord of the Harvest sends out labourers into, he knows the people who are his.

00:41:56: He knows who is going to.

00:41:58: Jesus sat by that well waiting for that Samaritan woman because he knew she was coming and if you talk to her she believes should go back in a whole town will believe him.

00:42:09: Philip sent Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts.

00:42:14: He sends Paul across the Aegean to Macedonia stopping it from going to other areas.

00:42:22: So what we need to pray and pray, I'm praying in evangelism is Lord leave me to the people that you are calling because that is a huge key.

00:42:34: of course We need put into effort understand where they're coming from.

00:42:39: Paul said so the Jew.

00:42:40: I became like a Jew to the Greek Like a greek.

00:42:47: Try and fit in with their ways rather than make them a fitting without us Not compromising on any religious issue, but in terms of culture and background to try it and build a bridge Which they can come over.

00:43:04: So that consistency and it may take Particularly people from other faith backgrounds.

00:43:10: It may take many many years.

00:43:13: one guy I was dealing with every afternoon for twenty years before he came to faith.

00:43:20: You put the time in, right?

00:43:22: Well again I prayed through that because i kept thinking this is an afternoon every week and could be spending with someone else but God kept me going.

00:43:33: so it's really about guidance.

00:43:38: if we're gonna do personal one-to-one evangelism If we see people from other faith backgrounds come to the Lord and their family are going to reject them, which is highly likely.

00:43:54: Particularly Muslim background People but also Hindu and Sikh.

00:43:58: The Family won't like it.

00:44:00: if they start to follow Jesus Then We must become family And not just words.

00:44:07: We Must be there for those people To Be There That They Know They Can Come Round That They know They've Got that Relationship and to fill in that gap, In their lives as much as we can.

00:44:19: That's an ongoing challenge obviously but it would be a different extents with different people.

00:44:27: so there was one young man who actually brought himself to faith here the Lord from Muslim background.

00:44:32: his family completely turned against him because of that And right from teenage I said okay where are you?

00:44:42: You're my boy

00:44:43: now

00:44:44: and he's in his fifties down with this own family, but it still my boy.

00:44:51: So

00:44:52: yeah.

00:44:53: Yeah

00:44:53: And we've often talked to him about.

00:44:57: I mean This is true perhaps of anyone from any cultural background But particularly when we talking within these contexts About younger ones because we are thinking on that context a lot the time leading spiritual parents you know actually mums and dads in the Lord.

00:45:13: I mean, Dad you talked a bit about that on your own experience but when you thought of Noorjavan because Noorjuvan in its whole context sprung from something the Lord gave you maybe to tell our story why that younger generation?

00:45:27: Why is it important for us to reach?

00:45:30: Something that you feel the Lord give you?

00:45:33: The trigger was going a conference on reaching out to people of Asian background in the Midlands.

00:45:42: A friend had asked me to come and when I went there they banned four asian lads, very loud.

00:45:54: my ears are ringing all the way home!

00:45:57: And anyway during the break i spoke with them just saying you know what do Do you lead worship and so on?

00:46:08: And they said, what do you

00:46:09: mean?".

00:46:09: I said,"Do play your guitar

00:46:10: there.".

00:46:12: Their response was that we don't get a look-in.

00:46:15: That just went in my heart... You didn't get looking!

00:46:19: I'm thinking if you're at my church to be leading worship every week or part of it wouldn't have been a part.... Anyway the thought would not go away The fact these talented young people weren't being used.

00:46:32: And they said, none of us.

00:46:33: There were two different churches in the area and so I couldn't get a thought out on my head.

00:46:38: So on their way home we just turned half-out drive back from Birmingham.

00:46:42: Just prayed that if you want to do anything The leading guide came back and spoke with Clive as well Said just put this on my heart.

00:46:54: We agreed They would pray for few months.

00:46:56: Talked to people see if anything sparks and they all, various ones said it's a good idea.

00:47:02: Another one said to do one event will cost three thousand pound making well we didn't ask for the costings.

00:47:08: you know just what are you thinking?

00:47:10: We're not in a very good place here in Southampton.

00:47:12: you know London Midland or whatever.

00:47:14: those were people who spoke with the few leaders that we knew And after three months nothing had happened.

00:47:22: so we tentatively put our program together on that first event we had, having all the wisdom of our younger folk in The Church at the time.

00:47:34: We've had about sixty people come from ten different cities and that really sort of confirmed it in my mind...that the need was there!

00:47:45: And then when decided with a few other leaders who would have come along to try an event once here in London or once in Midlands.

00:47:55: It's alternated for a number of years.

00:47:59: So that was the spark.

00:48:00: so people would find fellowship, find others who believe in their age.

00:48:05: and even more recent times have come and said I thought he is the only person from this background.

00:48:17: Well

00:48:17: thank you for being faithful to the call God put on your heart because i wouldn't be here without it!

00:48:24: We're grateful too, yeah.

00:48:28: I don't know why just cause chaos and hope.

00:48:32: no one tells me off.

00:48:34: Yeah i love that.

00:48:37: uh...I guess like for me..i've been a leadership Christian leadership for about seven years now.

00:48:41: um you have been doing it much longer than me And i think one of the greatest heartbreaks That ive ever had is watching young people come to faith And there's excitement and there's joy, then they walk away because the cost of following Jesus is too great.

00:48:56: I guess for you as you've experienced that... How has it been?

00:49:02: What would say to people who are discipling people who have walked away?

00:49:07: He

00:49:07: did tell us didn't he in The Parable Of The Sower That out of three seeds actually start growing Only

00:49:16: one

00:49:16: persists the one in The Shallow Saw, it's trouble or persecution.

00:49:22: Make them back off and then the ones surrounded by weeds... ...the cares and troubles of this world a deceitfulness of wealth make them back-off.

00:49:31: And my hope believe is that those people are saved but they just don't bear any fruit.

00:49:37: They don't grow!

00:49:41: In the end he has warned us ahead That thats what its like And you can see it in the rest of The New Testament.

00:49:50: that John is writing at the end of his letter, little children keep yourself from idols.

00:49:55: In Revelation It's saying to the churches how many are sort-of falling away?

00:50:00: To church that Ephesus has lost its first love and so on...and Its part and parcel Of Love.

00:50:09: if we love people then it is gonna

00:50:11: hurt.

00:50:11: Yeah!

00:50:12: ...And You Can't Avoid That.

00:50:16: But we have to leave it all in the Lord's hands and bring it all to His feet.

00:50:20: He loves them more than we do, he knows their heart better then what they might come back as the prodigal son

00:50:28: And...

00:50:30: We HAVE TO leave with Him In India.

00:50:33: It was really hard When I first lived there.

00:50:36: I mean.. India almost fifty years ago had much more poverty.

00:50:40: that is now i think in terms of whats on street.

00:50:44: You'd see and it's heartbreaking,

00:50:48: but

00:50:49: in the end you just couldn't live like that because your be absolutely

00:50:53: paralysed.

00:50:55: And you never get anywhere

00:50:56: right?

00:50:56: You'll never get any where.

00:50:57: so you have to bring this to the Lord and come on hopefully without getting hardened or cynical cause.

00:51:07: thats the other danger.

00:51:09: we become hard-hearted or cynical.

00:51:15: Just keep bringing it to him, I would

00:51:17: say.

00:51:18: Would you say the same?

00:51:19: I guess with situations where it feels like you've done all you can and there's nothing more you could do... ...I definitely have felt that frustration still feel of what more could i have done.

00:51:35: I tried everything, and nothing changed.

00:51:38: And that frustration...I mean i don't know how you guys haven't throat punched some people in the past because I feel it daily!

00:51:45: I'm like just.. I want to grab people by their shoulders and shake them.

00:51:49: be like stop

00:51:50: it.

00:51:50: what are

00:51:51: you doing?

00:51:51: so yeah where have you found?

00:51:54: The point of getting at is painful no matter when it happens especially with people we've been going on or apparently walking with a law for many years.

00:52:04: you know that and there's devastation around those situations, but again it comes back to bringing them before the Lord.

00:52:11: He is hurt!

00:52:12: You know he cries for these people when he wants those.

00:52:15: Far more heartbroken than we are right?

00:52:17: In every way in everywhere and he loves him far more as Clive said And he loves me cares more.

00:52:22: and yeah all the ripples of That which We have no idea Of thankfully But we can leave in his hands.

00:52:29: Yeah trusting that who will?

00:52:31: he knows best and his arms are open wide to have him back.

00:52:38: One thing I would say is that love also allows the person a choice, you know?

00:52:44: The parable of the prodigal son... ...the father didn't say it at the boy he wanted to go.

00:52:48: right!

00:52:48: You're grounded..you don't leave your room now.

00:52:51: ..you're not getting any inheritance....I'm

00:52:52: sure he was tempted.

00:52:54: He's staying here.

00:52:55: Yeah.

00:52:57: He let them go.

00:52:58: And because its a disaster what God does, He lets us go and that's something we have to do.

00:53:12: I think thats an important message in the cultural context that were talking about.

00:53:16: That is not a normal mindset particularly from South Asian culture perspective.

00:53:22: We often say young people are younger for longer.

00:53:27: It's a context.

00:53:28: He was the forty-year old, so he had still children.

00:53:30: in the youth ministry.

00:53:31: One

00:53:32: elderly man at our fellowship said to me once about his nephew who is in his fifties.

00:53:38: are these too young for this kind of responsibilities?

00:53:42: and when this one took over In twenty nineteen how old were you?

00:53:47: In

00:53:47: two nineteen I was thirty three.

00:53:50: He

00:53:52: said, it's like the same man.

00:53:53: Said is there going to be an adult with him?

00:53:57: I know

00:54:00: some people are always like so you lead this whole ministry and I was like yeah And they're like how old do you?

00:54:05: and i'm Like twenty five.

00:54:06: and They're like

00:54:07: oh

00:54:09: I Know

00:54:09: but that wisdom and love To allow your younger People any people to make The choices that huge isn't It?

00:54:17: because Yeah culturally That mindset just Isn't isn't there?

00:54:21: maybe it's the more tribal thing, that community thing whatever.

00:54:24: but and There are good sides to that.

00:54:26: But they're dangers as well.

00:54:28: And I know we've seen especially in the North Japan world.

00:54:30: We've seen lots of young people Are in though...in church but haven't been encouraged or empowered Or released.

00:54:38: You know we had a twenty-five area director In South America doing amazing things Um..and you know our hope Our desire is to see that Across this country, you know lots more rears basically

00:54:53: And it has only come out of a result of being nurtured.

00:54:56: So yeah

00:54:57: Yeah

00:54:57: I couldn't have done without you.

00:55:00: all those kids have you to thank not

00:55:03: me And the Lord.

00:55:04: yes that's right.

00:55:05: Um are there any just as final thing?

00:55:08: Are there any things That you would say particularly in the area leadership and working together overall these years leading church that are essential for young leaders, I would say.

00:55:27: We're connected to some across the country maybe who haven't had their support or infrastructure or framework you guys have provided us.

00:55:33: so we feel very blessed having sat under watched learn ask questions how-to go all those kind of stuff there's people don't.

00:55:43: If you had just a few minutes with them, what would you tell them to do in terms of their leadership priorities?

00:55:52: Leadership priorities.

00:55:54: Pray.

00:55:56: Probably like Tony Blair said education education education is pray pray pray Because that's where the real action takes place.

00:56:06: only if the law builds the house.

00:56:09: Otherwise, those are labor-labor invades.

00:56:12: So that really needs to be part of their own personal devotional time obviously rooted in the scripture.

00:56:19: have an older more experienced leader you can come alongside with and ask for wisdom In different situations.

00:56:31: I always...in earlier days made sure i had someone like this.

00:56:36: They weren't much older.

00:56:39: So it was always good to have someone like that as well, so those I would say are the big things.

00:56:49: Yeah...I guess there's also being aware of your gifting.

00:56:55: if you're working with others It can get more polar differences You know?

00:57:02: I wake up feeling quite good most days and no thoughts are going on at university.

00:57:09: And you know, organizationally we're quite different.

00:57:13: Yes.

00:57:13: He's much better

00:57:16: at it anyway.

00:57:16: Different priorities but recognizing those and not competing

00:57:24: or comparing

00:57:25: now is really important lesson.

00:57:28: early on the little talk of praise God for how God uses Clive just having that understanding, being patient with each other.

00:57:40: We've mostly been all right.

00:57:42: Well I

00:57:43: mean at thirty seven years and we haven't fallen out... Yeah?

00:57:45: My God's

00:57:46: great!

00:57:46: There is something to be said for this isn't

00:57:48: it?

00:57:49: It doesn't sound particularly glamorous does it but that is glorious in many ways.

00:57:54: And i think the friendship thing.

00:57:56: they're sort of side-by-side others on their journey.

00:58:00: Not only thank God because we are so different.

00:58:03: I'm this reactive, emotional Titanium.

00:58:06: You could say it off an atomic bomb next to him and then raise a eyebrow And so often... ...I've needed to ask him for wisdom.

00:58:16: Am i overreacting with his and bounce things after that?

00:58:21: Thank you Thanks for sharing and

00:58:24: leading Rezgar.

00:58:28: thankyou so much.

00:58:34: really embarrassing things about Sanjay,

00:58:37: that

00:58:37: I can use as content for the future.

00:58:43: Tell me what

00:58:45: you

00:58:48: need to know!